Curse

ogami_ito · Dec 12, 2006, 05:41 AM // 05:41

Derv Balance

The question is: what should the balance between defensive skills and offensive skills be in a derv? I use a system based upon what role I’m playing. This applies to scythe-based dervs and not healing dervs or “mage-bomb” dervs. Below, in the next post, are suggestions for rather standard builds…nothing too fancy. This post is just background on my ideas.

….

I have recently read a great thread that should be stickied:

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10086488

and a good discussion about Derv’s capabilities and class perceptions:
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10082553

I started thinking about some of the comments in these threads. To sum up some of these discussions, the “conversation” seems to go like this:

Dervs are perceived by other players to be an inferior class.
-NO! Its just that the class is new, everyone has one because they look cool, and there are a lot of not-that-good players. Dervs as a class really really ROCKS!
OK. Well actually, dervs make great tanks…as good as a warrior.
-IN YOUR DREAMS! Dervs will never be as good tanks as warriors…they are not made to be tanks.
YES they can be as good tanks for most groups in most situations, but just different purpose tanks. You just got to put up a lot of enchants.
-Well then, you are weak to mesmers . And you are using all your skills for defense.
SURE. That’s what tanks do. And these skills we use for defense synergize with our attack skills, energy management, and in other ways.
-OK. Maybe dervs can be good tanks. But anyway, why do you want to be a tank? Why not be a kick-butt damage dealer.

I have been thinking about this last point recently. And I am thinking “how much self-protection / self heal is necessary to be a good derv, while still being effective. And from this, I’m developing a derv-build “philosophy” (yes…I’m at work and bored out of my mind and have no life)

The Dervish uses more skills for defense than a warrior in any build. But I just realized this is primarily because derv defensive skills often mesh with the derv's offensive capabilities. Also, dervs don't really have "attack combos", but rather have "defense combos".

That being said, below are my build ideas.

ogami_ito · Dec 12, 2006, 05:42 AM // 05:42

First the roles. As I see it, dervs best fit these roles in these situations:

-PvE henchy-hero party – low- durability high-damage dealing fighter. The goal of this role is to help kill mobs fast.

-PvE human PUG party, not in end-missions – medium durability, medium-AOE damage dealer. The goal of this role is to spread melee damage, body-block foes, support the main tank (if there is one), and not cause to much energy stress for the monk.

-PvE human party for high-end mission / area – high durability condition spreader with low-damage. The goal of this role is to shut down melee mobs, ranged non-spell casters, and Shiro.

-PvE human party warrior replacement – ultra-high durability condition spreading tank with really low damage. The goal of this role is to replace a warrior.

-PvP melee shut-down – low- durability condition spreader with medium damage. The goal of this role is to shut down those stupid thumpers.

-PvP generalist - medium - durability medium-damage dealer w/ deep wounds. The goal of this role is to laugh at anyone who tries to put conditions on you while you apply and re-apply Deep Wounds

-PvP ganker – medium durability low- damage high mobility. The goal of this role is to survive while ganking deep in enemy territory.

What does high-durability mean? What does condition spreader mean? Here is how I’m looking at it.

Ultra-high durability: 7 skills for defense. Typically Mystic Regeneration, Vital Boom, Conviction, Avatar of Balthazar, and either Signet of Pious Light or Pious Restoration. You can go complete-tank by adding Armor of Sanctity and Aura of Thorns. You will have no attack skills, but you can have up to +79 armor (including Windwalker inscriptions), +12 or +15 regen, and a spike heal of over 200hp. And 20 points of damage reduction. This is the Dervish Pure Tank. Note that some people may find other ways to make this even more defensive by substituting other profession skills. Funny thing about this build is that mobs go out of their way to NOT attack you because their AI sees you as you are…really tough target. You got to use body blocking with this.

High-durability: 5 skills for defense. Typically Mystic Regeneration, Vital Boom, Conviction, Avatar of Balthazar, and either Signet of Pious Light or Pious Restoration. Max +79 armor, high regen, and a high spike heal.

Medium-durability: 4 skills for defense. Mystic Regeneration, Vital Boom, either Avatar of Balthazar or Avatar of Melandru, and either Signet of Pious Light or Pious Restoration. High regen. Either immunity to conditions or high armor. Spike heal.

Low-durability: 2 – 3 defense skills: Mystic Regen, and one other defensive oriented enchantment (an avatar, Vital Boom, Signet of Pius Light, etc depending on how you play). The point here is to still have a minimum of +6 health regen for 20 seconds.

In all the above, the there is Mystic Regen. That’s because its such an incredibly good skill I cannot see a reason to not take it. I believe this is the best heal-over-time skill in the game, even if you only bring two enchants.

Now, what does condition spreading mean?
-In a General PvP build, or in general play, it means Avatar of Melandru, Wearying Strike, and possibly a crippling skill like Aura of Thorns. Applies Deep Wounds.
-In the role as a melee shut-down derv for PvP and/or high-end missions, it means Ebon Dust Aura to apply blindness and Staggering Force (better though if you have an earth-damage scythe so you have the option to not bring Staggering Force). This, combined with Wild Blow and Mending Touch, will protect your party in higher-level missions and EASILLY kill Shiro . ( I can’t believe so many people complain about how hard it is to kill Shiro!)
-It also means using Aura of Thorns to cripple and cause bleeding.

OK. About damage:
-Low damage: Mystic Sweep.
-Medium damage: Mystic Sweep, Heart of Fury, and one more attack skill (Chilling Victory, Victorious Strike, Crippling Sweep , Rending Sweep)
-High Damage: Mystic Sweep, Heart of Fury, Wearying Strike, and one more attack skill (Chilling Victory, Victorious Strike, Crippling Sweep , Rending Sweep)

Notice that Mystic Sweep is in every category. That’s because it rocks.

That’s it. This is how to build a balanced derv. Any comments?

Kijik Oni Hanryuu · Dec 12, 2006, 07:43 AM // 07:43

high damage=Reaper's Sweep
they get below 50% health and they're good as dead.

ogami_ito · Dec 12, 2006, 07:58 AM // 07:58

^^^Thank you for replying.

If you compare the damage output of Reaper's Sweep, to the overall elite combo (and it is one of the few attack combos the derv has) of Aura of Melandru (AoM)+Wearying Sweep, you will see there is really no comparison. Reaper's has an 8 second recharge and only gives deep-wounds if the target is below 50% health. The AoM+Wearying Sweep combo puts the derv in a state for one minute, where you have +200 health, immune to conditions, and are able to hit with Wearying Sweep EVERY swing. Each hit with Wearying does the same amount of damage as Reaper's, and applies deep wounds condition regardless of the targets health.

The only downside to this is that you are 1 minute in state of AoM, 1 minute not in AoM. Lets say you cannot live with that. You can still take Ebon Dust, Wearying strike, and the assassin Signet of Malignence, and apply two great conditions (deep wounds + blindness) NON-STOP.

jesh · Dec 12, 2006, 09:11 AM // 09:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by ogami_ito

The only downside to this is that you are 1 minute in state of AoM, 1 minute not in AoM. Lets say you cannot live with that. You can still take Ebon Dust, Wearying strike, and the assassin Signet of Malignence, and apply two great conditions (deep wounds + blindness) NON-STOP.

Signet of Malice, you mean? That's a really cool idea, actually. I'd never thought of using Signet of Malice for some reason, I always stopped that train of thought at Plague Touch.

Marverick · Dec 13, 2006, 02:16 AM // 02:16

Ebon Dust Aura is an elite so you can't take it with AoM.

Kijik Oni Hanryuu · Dec 13, 2006, 05:51 AM // 05:51

thing about Reaper's is thatit alsodoes~+40 damage

ogami_ito · Dec 13, 2006, 02:25 PM // 14:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marverick

Ebon Dust Aura is an elite so you can't take it with AoM.

I guess I should have made my reply clearer. My point was that if you don't like AoM...and I believe the only reason why someone would not like it is because you can only use it one minute every-other-minute, then you can INSTEAD take Ebon Dust Aura, Wearying Strike, and Signet of Malice (and an Earth-damage scythe) , RATHER than take Reaper's Sweep for your elite..

Quote:

thing about Reaper's is thatit alsodoes~+40 damage .

This is all getting off of the spirit of my post about Derv balance. However, I will show you how this breaks down.

Reapers Sweep -ELITE (5e) at 16 Scythe Mastery does +40 damage every 8 seconds. If a TARGET is less than 50% in health, THAT TARGET suffers from Deep Wounds for about 20 seconds. If that Deep Wounds condition is removed somehow, you need to wait until Reapers Sweep is active again to re-apply...assuming the target is still below 50% health.

Wearing Sweep (5e) at 16 Scythe Mastery does +30 damage every 2 seconds. Which means that in the time that Reapers recharges, it has done +120 damage...assuming you have a way to take off Weakness (Avatar of Melandru, Signet of Malice, Plague Touch, etc). It also does Deep Wounds for 10 seconds WHEN IT HITS. Meaning if the attack hits three enemies, you have just spread the best condition in the game to three targets. And you can re-apply this every 2 seconds. And this skill is not elite.

I believe Wearing Sweep may be nerfed soon though.

twicky_kid · Dec 13, 2006, 06:32 PM // 18:32

Dervishs are very powerful in a team setting. They have great synergy with teammates and very flexible. Its one of the few classes that has 4-5 different bars you can run. I don't see many of the other classes that even come close to that many different builds with just their primary class skills.

Skuld · Dec 14, 2006, 12:32 AM // 00:32

Yeh, Reaper's Sweep sucks. Definantly not worth taking as your elite, ever.

strcpy · Dec 14, 2006, 07:14 AM // 07:14

I use reaper's sweep in a farming build - it does do AoE deep wound to any thing your scythe hits that meets its requirements (regardless of the fact the skill says "your target" and implies only the enemy you have targeted - it has also been tested in the discussion at guildwiki and found to be AoE). Once three griffons hit <50% health they are dead in one cast of this and one regular swing of the scythe. It is, by far, the fastest I have ever farmed griffons.

I do not like the forms as either a normal build or, even more so, in a farming build because of the recharge. AoM is one of my least favorites because of the 25e cost. When they are up and working pretty much no skill set in the game can compare (and this is especially true with AoM), but you get to have at least one skill, maybe several not usable for at around a minute (unless you want to suffer conditions you were depending on AoM to negate). With AoM I either have to take up one of my weapon slots with a +energy set of items or if I ever die then it is gone until I work the DP off (and if the rest of my skills are centered around it then they tend to be useless). I do not care how good you are, you will die from time to time.

The tactics for using wearying strike without AoM - I do not think that wearying strike is worth two skill slots and forcing a specific secondary (to get rid of the weakness). IMO the skill isn't *that* good. If you want to be responsible for sheer output of damage think about /p and spamming "Go for the Eyes", not only does it add a +57% chance to crit on your next hit (at 9 command) but with your scythe and its 4 adrenaline cost you are spamming it like crazy. Of course, that's not so much the little numbers you *directly* cause, but having "Go for the Eyes" up that often *really* increases your whole parties DPS.

No doubt the statistics you give are true - that combination is simply the highest DPS a dervish can dish out and it is *very* good when it works. I just find I prefer a slightly less damage output build that doesn't have that many drawbacks - hence no wearying strike. I generally use Victorious sweep, less damage but I like generally getting +80 or so health per use.

As for elite, I don't have a normal. For the most part my general build falls into your high durability builds (and I hench). Ebon Dust Aura works well, Wounding strike at the beginning can really help if the henchies follow your called target and spike, and while not my favorite Avatars are hard to wrong with, but I generally use them as a "plus" to my builds, not center a build around them due to their downtime.

I'm not arguing that any of this is "better" as one can not say which is truly better (anymore than you can accurately say that Reaper's Sweep is not ever worth taking - not true).

Crom The Pale · Dec 14, 2006, 07:51 AM // 07:51

I find that both skills are situational. Reapers has its place in my build when I need single hit dmg with low energy.

Keep in mind that for Wearing Sweep you either need to spend 25e on Avatar of Melandru or 5e on plauge touch or some other skill to deal with the weakness, add those in to your time equations and the possiblility of being interupted and Reaper Sweep tends to be the more reliable skill.

However there are many Elites that can be of more use in most parts of the game, Vow of Silence being one of my favs.

As for Dervish balance there are basicaly two approaches I tend to use.

1) the simplest a 4/4 skill split.
2) I base my healing/damage on the team make up

The first one is as simple as taking 2healing/2defencive skills and 3/4 offencive/res signet.

The seconds forces you to talk to team mates and see if your damage out put should be higher than your self healing or the reverse. ie: if im in a team of 8 with 3 monks i'll take 6 attack/damge skills and only 1/2 self heals. IF there is one monk and one rit i'll take 5/6 self heals/party heals and just 1/2 damage skills.

If your with Hero/hench the take method 1, if your with live people then method 2 will make you a lot of friends

ogami_ito · Dec 14, 2006, 10:25 AM // 10:25

Thanks for replying

STRCPY... BTW, I did say I was making recomendation on a sort of "standard" build balance. I use Reaper's Sweep in farming builds too...that's not what I call a really standard PvP/PvE build though. And I also mentioned that some people really do not like Avatars that much because they are its on-one-minute/off-the-next. And I agree with you that Plague Touch is not great for Wearying because of interupts and overall energy costs. I really do think Signet of Malice would work well, will not slow you down. What's more, you're not taking Signet of Malice (or AoM or Mending Touch etc) just to power Wearying...you are taking those skills because they are usefull in themselves.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crom The Pale

However there are many Elites that can be of more use in most parts of the game, Vow of Silence being one of my favs.

I have capped this, but not sure where is the best place to use it. It seems if-y to me because you can't cast enchants with this up. On the otherhand, it might be good to bring an enchant cancelling skill (Signet of Pious Light, etc) to cancel this early when you want to.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crom The Pale

As for Dervish balance there are basicaly two approaches I tend to use

1) the simplest a 4/4 skill split.
2) I base my healing/damage on the team make up

I think I was implying that people should do this when they determine what role they are playing in the group based on what type of group. But you said it better...people need to talk to their teamates (unless teammates are henchies...but hey...do what feels good for you) to determine what role they should best play.

Saider maul · Dec 14, 2006, 10:38 PM // 22:38

i cant tell if your saying the dervish are over powered or under powered.

I think their just fine. could use their dmg range tightened a bit. 9-41 is to broad. i was hoping they would switch it to like 14-38. but that why i prefer Mage-bombing with ViM.

But to each their own

Crom The Pale · Dec 15, 2006, 08:32 AM // 08:32

There are two things people should think about when making a VoS Dervish.

1) This is not really a long term repeat casting skill in most locations, its for initial pulling or attacking. The idea is to put it up and charge in, the mob wastes energy trying to cast on you, then your party comes in behind to lay down a spike on high priority targets.

2) while this does prevent you from casting spells it has no effect on signets or other means of healing. You can use the monk signets for a small heal, they have one in the healing attributes from Factions, or the wars Healing signet or Lions comfort. Remeber that with lions comfort you get 5hp for each point in tactics as well as its base heal for strenth attribute so with 10-12 points in tactics you get a nice heal out of it. If your using that much tactics look into several other skills that work well with high tactics such as:
desperate blow + drunken blow + balanced stance
Thrill of victory
"Watch Yourself!" + Soldier's Strike
"None Shall Pass!" ( great fast knockdown to help with crowd control )

There are other means of healing with Victorious Strike and Vamp touch.

Another idea ive used is to pair it with Twin Moon Sweep so I can put it up when I'm sure a caster has targeted me for a nasty spell or two then I can bring it down gaining health and dealing a double strike.

Like any skill you need to know when to use it and when not too, practise is the best answer.

strcpy · Dec 15, 2006, 09:46 AM // 09:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by ogami_ito

STRCPY... BTW, I did say I was making recomendation on a sort of "standard" build balance. I use Reaper's Sweep in farming builds too...that's not what I call a really standard PvP/PvE build though. And I also mentioned that some people really do not like Avatars that much because they are its on-one-minute/off-the-next. And I agree with you that Plague Touch is not great for Wearying because of interupts and overall energy costs. I really do think Signet of Malice would work well, will not slow you down. What's more, you're not taking Signet of Malice (or AoM or Mending Touch etc) just to power Wearying...you are taking those skills because they are usefull in themselves.

To be fair, I was more replying to the person above me that gave an absolute while trying not to contradict you. I tend to agree with your analysis, just I focus on something else than you do (pretty much what we both have wrote in these posts). Just re-read what I wrote with that in mind and I think you will see what I'm trying to get at.

Same post and inclination, just that I believe what you say "others" think and you believe what I say "others" think. One of the things I've always liked about GW is that there are quite a few different concepts to play that work quite well. I've always been able to find someway to play each class that is mostly effective and I enjoy. With the Dervish, too many different effective methods to count (and hence why it has quickly become my favorite class). Heck, we haven't even really touched on enchant bombing in this discussion yet